One of the things we need to question in our evangelical quest to “save as many souls as possible before all hell breaks loose" is, who, how and why.
But I keep going back to what Jesus Christ said about himself and the Father. “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.” John 6:65.
Well, that’s fine and dandy, except, what if the Father never calls this person? What do we do then? I suppose we tell them “Tough luck kid, I guess you’re going to be punished in hell for the next zillion years even though you didn’t have a chance to begin with!”
That doesn’t seem to be fair, especially from a loving God and for such a short, miserable life this person had. And how would we ever know if God is calling them later or not? Should we give up? Try to save them ourselves? Wait on the Lord as some would say? (Waiting is not a bad idea by the way)
But we are still in panic mode trying our best and hope to God all these otherwise nice people don’t go to hell.
What work we do! What love for these people we must have! What commitment, zeal…and full of ourselves! What a waste of time! And God seems to be doing absolutely nothing unless we act!
Seems foolish to me, considering how weak and broken I am. So I am reminded of the foolishness of God which is still far wiser than mans wisdom. 1Cor. 1:25 Maybe we are missing something here.
Because yet another verse, which seems to contradict the first one, says, “No one can come unto the Father except through [Jesus]”. John 14:6
Stop the car! Pull over! Let’s pull this map out and read it again! First, we can’t go to Jesus unless the Father draws us to him, and we cannot go to the Father except through Jesus, whom we cannot go to unless the Father, (which we cannot access without Jesus) draws us to Jesus!! What gives?
Either we are already in Jesus because of what they did, or there is absolutely no hope for humanity: saints and sinners!
Now what is the evangelist to do? Or have we misunderstood what we are to do? We think we are called to save souls. Well, to a certain limit, yes, but for what, and for whom? It isn’t a matter of saving people from, but for. Isn’t our main priority to announce the Good News of God’s Kingdom which, if I’m not too far mistaken, Jesus is King of right now? If Jesus is the King of a Kingdom, then we can only assume there are subjects (citizens) of that Kingdom. And Jesus’ Kingdom includes all of humanity. So the real question is, what are we “saving” them, or better yet, leading to them understanding, for?
All we are called to do is to announce the Good News of this Kingdom and teaching all nations (peoples, who are already a part of this Kingdom) to observe and learn their role in this Kingdom! And to help people see who Jesus is, who they are in Jesus, and to help them receive (not get) the understanding (via Holy Spirit) and accept the “already done” into their daily lives.
Either we are going round and round trying to save people (just in case Jesus missed a few), or God has already resolved this circular puzzle.
May this circle be unbroken.
“Lord, please open our eyes to your Kingdom already at hand”
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| Boyd Merriman |
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Absolutely wonderful stuff! I look forward to reading more for sure! Thank you brother.
ReplyDeleteI thought I had commented on this previously. This is good stuff... The whole question of "What is Salvation" is something I still struggle with.
ReplyDeleteBy the typical "evangelical" definition, I have been "saved" for years... I am not sure that matches the Biblical definition.
Where I am going is that if the "run-of-the-mill" definition of salvation is flawed, maybe the process we use to bring people into the fold is flawed?
That is the question I want you to ask Joel!
ReplyDeleteWhen we see the world through broken theology, looking to the OT for all the answers outside of who and what we are in Christ, then all we see is hell bound people. We go into panick mode and try to save as many as possible before time runs out. Not very effecient seeing the popuation is dying and growing faster than we can keep up the world census.
But if we look at humanity through the lenses of the Trinity, then suddenly, a whole new light is shining and we can see clearly how we can serve this humanity in Christ!
Hey Boyd,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned this idea in one of the threads on Baxter's blog and I just skipped over it. I don't have a problem with what you're saying concerning our part in "evangelism" (we don't "save" anyone, we announce and proclaim the "good news"), but I have a question about how you understand John 6:35-40, 44.
You support a Universal Atonement (and possibly, contra Baxter, a Universal Salvation...though I can't be dogmatic about this) and have even said in other place that every individual human being is currently and forever "in Christ"; and here you make it clear that we have all been given to the Son through the Spirit "f the only way we can access the Father is through Jesus and the only way we can access Jesus is from the Father invitation, then we can only assume we are already in contact with both, Father and Son! "
My problem is that the John 6 passage in context (the whole chapter even) is stressing that all those and only those who the Father gives to the Son (v.37) actually come to the Son and will be raised up on the last day. And unless we are actually Universalists, we must follow the logic of this passage and understand that there are some (many?) that are not "given by the Father to the Son". How can you suggest that everyone is "in Christ" (given by the Father to the Son) when this passage clearly intimates that some are not given by the Father to the Son (unless every individual human being will be saved).
Needing clarity on how you (and other Universal Atonement believers) understand this passage. By the way, I'm all for Universal Atonement if I can biblically/theologically support it. So anyone's help here is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason
Thanks for your comment Jason. First of all, we are making the assumption that God is holding out on humanity. It is true that only those who are given by the Father to Christ are saved. So I suppose the next question is, who did God not call and why?
ReplyDeleteWhat makes some of us sinners "qualified" and others not? All are sinners and all are the same in God's eyes.
The only way we can come to Christ is by the Fathers invitation, so without the Fathers invitation, it does not matter how "good" you are or evil. It is up to God the Father to give us to Christ. The point of all this is that our religion and "good works" will ammount to nothing except the Father and the Son to work together to make it happen.
There should be some good news in there if we relax and let God be the judge of humanity instead of us.
God is good all the time, and it was by His goodness that he sent his son to redeem humanity, then why are some give to Christ and some not?
Lets put it another way. Those who are not called and given to the Son are not saved. That I can agree with. So who are not given to the Son, even though "all things are put under his feet". What this message is about is that we cannot be saved without Christ or the Father. It has to be done by both, or none of us has a chance, good or bad.
Where we get off track is that we assume that one must be given to the Father or you are not saved means that there are some that are not given by the Father. It does not say that. It says that who are given to the Son by the Father are saved. And that is true. Since all things have been put under his (Jesus) feet, except for the Father himself, then we can only assume that all are under Christs' authority and rule.
Boyd
The only way I know of 'resolving' this is to reiterate what Torrance says, namely that it is in the nature of evil, that we are no more able to explain the darkness and evil or explain evil away, than we are able to explain the workings of the Holy Spirit. Or put the other way round, we cannot or are not permitted to fathom the 'logic' of the Holy Spirit any more than we can give a full explanation of evil. We simply cannot resolve these matters. However whereas, in the past, i used to believe in a simply black and white , good and bad categorisation of the world and its people, now i have opened up to the largess of God's love and feel permitted to witness in places where otherwise i might have fled! Contrib. timothy parker
ReplyDelete"It says that who are given to the Son by the Father are saved. And that is true. Since all things have been put under his (Jesus) feet, except for the Father himself, then we can only assume that all are under Christs' authority and rule."
ReplyDeleteSo, you are saying that this passage teaches Universalism (that every individual will be saved). You are saying that the "all" that the Father gives to Jesus is every human being, and since all that the Father gives Jesus comes to Jesus (and He loses none of them), then every human being is or will be saved.
Again, I have no problem with you being a Universalist...just admit it up front instead of dancing around it so that it is clear where you are coming from. I just don't believe that this passage in particular and the Bible overall teaches Universalism...though I'm leaning toward the idea of Universal Atonement (as Torrance understands it).
I can except (for now) that there may be an "objective reality" in which the Person and Work of Christ has affected all of humanity such that every individual is "in Christ" as a "New Creation" (a new humanity in connection with Jesus, the True Man) and yet "subjectively" we can still live as though we are the "old man" and potentially reject Christ and live forever refusing communion with God (F-S-S); but this passage in John as well as Romans 8-11 (and many other places in the NT) speak to an "election" that is actually effectual. All that the Father gives to Jesus come to Him and will be raised up on the last day; only those who eat Christ's flesh and drink His blood (believes or comes to Christ) has eternal life; the Spirit gives this life; only those who have the Spirit belong to Christ (Rom. 8:9); those who are being led by the Spirit are sons of God (as opposed to all the rest who are sons of the devil (John 8:44); and Romans 8:28-30 clearly teaches that those whom God called (elected) will be conformed to the image of Christ (there is no lost "elect" in this passage.
Of course, as a Universalist these passages are applied to every human being because every person is or will be saved. But if a person is not a Universalist, then these passages clearly suggest an election unto salvation for some but not all. Salvation is clearly tied to the presence of the indwelling Spirit. And the Scripture speaks of the Spirit indwelling only those who believe (Acts, Galatians, etc.). This is how the Bible speaks of those who are joined to Christ; they are joined to Christ by the Spirit. But the Spirit doesn't indwell everyone.
I'm not sure yet how to reconcile Universal Atonement with these kinds of passages, but I'm not yet willing to go as far as Universalism as you have. I really don't want to settle for "limited atonement" because I'm convinced that God (F-S-S) did not create with the purpose of only "electing" some for relationship and damning the rest to an eternity of enmity.
Maybe Universalism is true...I just can't support it exegetically. Of course, my exegesis could be wrong, but I've yet to find an exegesis of these passages (and others) that suggests anything different than what I've already offered.
Anyway, I'll stop my rambling now. I really want to believe that "all are included". But I don't know how I can when the Spirit indwells only those who believe, only those who are truly "Abraham's offspring".
Thanks for your patience.
Jason
This isn't directly tied to my last comment (which I'd still like clarification on), but I've been thinking about something you've said before, either to me directly or on another comment thread. You said something to the effect that if Adam's sin affected all of humanity (and creation), then Jesus' work of reconciliation affects all of humanity (and creation). You said something like, "Is Adam more powerful than Jesus? Is Adam's "work" more powerful than Jesus' "work"?"
ReplyDeleteThis is a very powerful and thought-provoking statement. Of course I agreed that Jesus and His work are more powerful than Adam and his "work" and that it affects all of creation. The Father has in Christ recovered all things "lost" in the Fall and that creation will experience its own redemption with the renewal to come at Christ's return. I didn't extend this recovery in my thinking to every human being because according to Scripture (I believe) there will be many who will forever reject Christ and His Gospel and refuse to come to Him for life.
Having said that, the idea of Universal Atonement is very appealing because it certainly does allow Christ and His work to have the same "universal" aspect as Adam and his "work" had without necessarily concluding that every person will "believe" and enter into this "life of Christ".
So what I'm saying is that you've said some things seem true to the heart of God (as F-S-S in relationship) and His purpose for creation. I agree that everything that takes place in redemptive history (beginning with creation up to the present) has been progressing toward fulfilling God's purpose to "sum up all things in Christ". I agree that He has ordained all things for this purpose (the incarnation and everything wrapped up in it wasn't an afterthought or "plan B") and with the coming of Christ all things have been fulfilled--we only await the consummation at His return.
But I'm having trouble reconciling Universal Atonement and the non-Penal Atonement theory with the passages that seem to indicate "particular atonement" with regards to "election" (some examples I've already stated before) and the typology of the Sacrificial System which obviously foreshadows Christ as not only the Great High Priest but also the sacrifice itself. Especially in the sacrificial system we see a gulf between God and man in which God required the mediation of priest and sacrifice to affect the relationship between God as Father and Israel as "son". And the sacrificial system was obviously instituted with regard to sin and the separation that existed between God and man. Contra Baxter, God presents Himself as unapproachable in the OT because of sin and the gulf of estrangement that has come in the curse and therefore there must be mediation (which, of course, speaks typologically of Christ--His Person and His work). The people didn't want to go up on the firery mountain to meet with God but requested that Moses meet with God for them...and God said that was good, that the people have spoken well. And the High Priest (representing the people) went into the Holy Place alone with fear and trembling to present the sacrifice before God in order to "renew" the status of relationship between God and Israel (representing "man").
Anyway, as you know by now I have many, many questions but a sincere hunger to reconcile Universal Atonement and its implications with the Scripture.
Do you know of any commentaries and/or doctrinal treatments of the Scripture from a Universal Atonment standpoint? My heart says, "Yes" to much of what I'm learning in these parts...but my mind can't reconcile many things.
Thanks Boyd.
Jason
I almost hate to say I'm a "universalist" without being associated with Satan dancing in heaven celebrating his evilness and getting by with it.
ReplyDeleteSo I will cautiously say so, in a "catholic" way.
We are talking about indwelling of the spirit VS belonging to Christ.
Fact: everything belongs to Christ. When Christ overcame the world (cosmos), he took all authority away from Satan. Yes Satan is still being Satan. We still have issues which are caused by Satan, but under Christ. That doesn't mean Jesus Christ approves of them, caused them or is looking the other way or winking at these issues. Jesus will take care of them, which is His responsibility as King to do.
To be indwelt with the HS is not the same as all under Christ. There are many in the U.S. that are under the flag, but will refuse to salute or pledge allegiance to. They will burn it as soon as they had the chance. But they are still U.S. citizens.
God has put all things under His feet, to do as he wills. Being under someone’s rule does not mean that you are loyal or will follow. But you are under that rule never the less. Any laws you break, you are under them and will be dealt with. If humanity at large is not under Christ, they are not under his law nor obligated to it. I am not obligated to be under the law of any other country. But I am under the U.S.
But since Jesus has taken all authority, then all are under him. Otherwise Jesus has no right to punish someone for breaking laws they are not obligated to follow. But those who do claim to be under Christ and acknowledge his authority (Christians), then we are more obligated to obey.
Satan is under Christ’s rule too (and knows it). Satan cannot do anything without Jesus permission. That doesn't mean that Satan is indwelt with the holy spirit or that he will repent or go along with the program. Satan will behave like Satan, no matter who he is under. Thank God he is under Jesus, lest it be much worse for us. To accept salvation and to be saved is two different things.
You wrote "All that the Father gives to Jesus come to Him and will be raised up on the last day; only those who eat Christ's flesh and drink His blood (believes or comes to Christ) has eternal life;" Correct. ALL WILL be raised up in the last day
But those who partake in Jesus life, death, resurrection, ascension, will be given Eternal Life.
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ReplyDeleteNow, the (not so) funny thing is that we have no problem saying those who are sinners, refuse salvation, will go to hell to suffer eternally. How can they if they do not have eternal life? The wages of sin is death. But we have them alive and well (sort of), in hell, suffering for "eternity", ok, just say a few trillions years, for a messed up short life, is, well, "inhumane" to say the least! I hope they are put to death. For Mercies sake.
All are raised up, given the understanding of reconciliation, redemption, love, mercy, forgiveness, and much mor, then they can receive (not get) salvation, which was theirs all along.
But they also have a chance to reject what was given to them. But they had better know what they are rejecting, and maybe just a handful of really messed up folks will fall into that category.
The false prophets mentioned in Revelation, where Satan and his demons will be tossed in with were not mentioned as suffering, but were burned. Satan and his demons are mentioned to be suffering forever. So who else? I hope that's it. The rest, I'm sure, will have a far better chance.
What we need to do when preaching the gospel is not try to save people for Christ, but to acknowledge their inclusion and letting them know that they are not left out. Repentance will come at the revelation, when their eyes are opened. Would you agree that they cannot see unless Christ opened their eyes? If so, why punish them for something they cannot help outside of Christ? Like punishing a blind man for running into the ditch.
See my more recent "I Think I'll Go and Repent".
Boyd,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments. We obviously have a different opinion about what the John passage is saying (as well, I suspect, as the Roman passages). It seems to me that you are equivocating terms in this passage so that the all that the Father gives to Christ are not the same all who actually come to Christ. I think this passage (as with the Romans passage and the testimony of the Scripture at large) clearly differentiates between two classes of people: those who believe and come to Christ and those who don't. All that the Father gives to Christ come to Him--He loses none. The logical (and seemingly Biblical) conclusion is that since there are some (many?) that don't come to Christ (those who continue to refuse and reject Him), then these are those who have not been given to Him by the Father. I just don't see any way around this.
On a positive note, since I've been learning about Universal Atonement (and through our conversations), I've relaxed my stance on being against post-mortem "salvation" (as I originally held when I first encounted you on Baxter's blog). I can no longer defend the idea that there will be no opportunity to "come to Christ" after death. I don't believe the Scripture teaches that God (F-S-S) has from all eternity determined that those who have never heard the Gospel will not have the opportunity to hear it and believe...or not (Rom. 10:13-14). This of course does not condone our silence now (we should preach and teach the Gospel to all people), but it does allow for all the world to hear the truth at some point.
Having said that, I can see how it is difficult to understand the idea of the Father giving some to Christ but not all...but this seems to be the language of the Scripture, as I've been atempting to have us deal with it.
Somehow, some way, I need to understand how Universal Atonement answers the question of the efficaciousness of Christ's atoning work that is everywhere applied to the "elect" by the indwelling of the Spirit. The Scripture clearly (in my mind) states that it is the indwelling presence of the Spirit that marks those who belong to God as His Children in Christ and that those who do not posses the indwelling presence of the Spirit are called not His Children and are outside the Kingdom.
We seem to be going 'round and 'round on this issue. Until someone can explain (for starters) John 6 and Romans 8 (specifically the passages I've referred to, and also Romans 9-11) from a Universal Atonement perspective, there are just too many questions for me to jump fully on board.
Universal Atonement speaks to my heart, but my head (mind) still needs to see it Biblically.
Thanks for your time, Boyd. I really do appreciate your efforts.
Jason
BTW--I'm still game for the email correspondence if you and your friends can take it! :-)
I'm surprised I didn't comment on this a long time ago. But life happens and here I am again 11 years later.
DeleteSo, "The father hasn't given all to Christ" says who? Where in scriptures does it say that the Father has not given all to Christ? Sure, not all go to Christ, not all receives or accepts this offer to go to Christ, but all things are under his feet, all things are his. All humanity belongs to Christ to do with what he wills, and if he wills them to be forgiven, then forgiven they will be. What WE do with that knowledge and understanding, is up to us. Our job is to explain this "mystery" to the rest of humanity.